Masi Nayem: a veteran of real and trolling wars

Masi Nayem lost an eye on the frontline, underwent several operations, recovered, returned to the front again… and met the King of England! During this time, his Miller law firm gained momentum, he started several prominent holy wars on Twitter, became the face of the men's clothing brand Indposhiv, and founded a charity project to help war veterans. We recorded this interview last autumn when Masi was waiting for an operation. That time everyone interviewed him, and we even had to squeeze into a queue. But we thought we'd release it a bit later when his popularity craze has calmed down a bit. Now, while Masi is somewhere fighting Russia, it's time to finally release our conversation with him about nationalism, patriotism, and, of course, flame wars.

Patriotism and nationalism

One noname pro-Russian channel called you a “Georgian”, does it offend you?
Well, you know, it doesn't. They don't even know how to insult. Well, I am Georgian – let it be. Ethnically, I am from Afghanistan, I understand that as a son of Afghanistan, I have done and am doing very little for Afghanistan. Let's say “Georgian” is not an insult, I would be offended if they called me a Russian or Arab.

Are all Russians bad?
Not all are bad. You know, it's a common tool of manipulation to generalize, so I think, I'm sure there are environments where everyone is bad. Yes, there are people who have been brainwashed; they are zombified, and they are the enemy until we transform them. I do not trust those Russians who once supported the Russian government but now have stopped supporting them. They act like ordinary politicians. But I don't think all Russians are bad, that's 100 percent true.

Are you a nationalist?
If the reverse side of nationalism is apathy towards the state, towards the nation in which you live, then I am a forced nationalist. If Russia didn't attack, I wouldn't care if it was a Russian or someone else working with me in the same company. In the situation when the entire nation is brainwashed, I understand that it is better to protect our Ukrainians, us as a nation, and then there will be no threat to it. Therefore, in the sense of a threat to the existence of the nation, it is quite logical to be a nationalist. I am a nationalist, then.

What is patriotism for you?
Can it be that patriotism in peacetime is nationalism? I do not feel any depth in the word patriotism. To be a patriot is to protect the political system. Am I ready to always and blindly protect the Ukrainian political system? No. If Yanukovych were there now, would I want to defend this system? No, I would definitely not want to defend it. You want to protect the earth, people, and society. Why? You know, this was a very important moment for me all the time. Why do my brother Mustafa and I always seek justice? Or what do people get? I think that after seeing great evil in Afghanistan, we realized that great evil can only be overcome by society. Therefore, returning to patriotism, it is so good, such a light version of it, that we don't care what happens at all. But, nationalism is more about action, you understand that there is an imminent threat, and you are forced to act.

In the Western media, from time to time, there is an opinion that “Azov” are Nazis. How do you distinguish Nazism from nationalism?
It seems to me that there is a lack of balance, well, like, I think that the limit of nationalism is where we are screwed, the limit of Nazism is to screw another state simply because we can. At the individual level, the border of nationalism runs through humanity, for sure: to kill a Russian soldier who took up a weapon is ok, but to kill a Russian citizen who has not done anything bad towards our state, does not support the policy of their state, is not ok.

While you were in the hospital, in Aspen, we discussed Habermas' text about the impossibility of winning a war against a nuclear power. What struck me in that text was not his thesis but his admiration for Ukrainians who bravely defend their country against a much stronger enemy, while Europeans mostly rely on a professional army and would hardly go to fight in the place of Ukrainians. Under my impression, I heard your speech at YES, where you said that EU citizens take their freedom as a given, as a basic right, but do they have the will to protect this freedom? If you were sure that Ukraine has a strong army, you would not go as a volunteer but simply watch how professional soldiers protect your freedom?
I can't imagine this because I'm not sure about ordinary Ukrainian state institutions. And our army is not numerous enough, it is not strong enough without the people. It would be strange to be apart. Just think, you guys are paying for it, but go and deal with the Russians? That's not how it works. I think that this war is the business of the entire nation because the entire nation is at risk, not a specific number of soldiers or a political system.

Flame wars and politics

Why do you constantly get into flame wars?
I think that before the injury, I could put it down to the fact that people don't fully understand which of us is Masi and who is Mustafa, and I felt sorry for my brother. Hopefully, after the injury, they will finally start to tell the difference between a person with one eye and a person with two.

Actually it is not so. Come on, I know for sure that this is a consequence of my actions. At one time, I was not clear about many things, including who to defend and who not to defend fundamentally. And also because I rode my high horse, I said – guys, you know, I'm good. But if you are so good, you should either go into politics or become an activist. When you're a lawyer, you can't be good for everyone, you'll always offend some community. I think when I got on my high horse and then got off and became a lawyer, they didn't notice.

And now I still have the image of a person who has already fought, a poor thing. I understand that people want to apply love to me as a collective image of a poor thing. But I'm not like that. I understand that, on the one hand, I have to justify it, on the other hand, I don't want to change my life: I don't want to be a “disabled veteran” and loudly carry this flag. This image just happened, but I did nothing heroically.

Now you're a “war veteran” forever. How do you live with this status?
I don't feel it, I know that as soon as I feel it, I will bring a victim complex with me, I will demand something from the state. I do not think that the state owes me anything. It's like taxes: if you just pay taxes, then you hardly have the right to go to the square and demand some kind of special treatment. You were not in the war, but you work. Are drivers carrying food to front-line cities less heroes? No, not lesser heroes. The same is with the guys who get on a tractor and drive across the field, not knowing whether it is mined or not, they are also heroes for me. I realize that I am not an exception, I am not special. That's why I don't really like being a “veteran”. A war hero is a far-fetched story for me. People are very grateful to those who fight for them, even more so to those who are wounded. But I am not one of those good, kind, cool guys, real heroes, for example, the fighters of Azov.

You have now become much closer to politics. It's within easy reach.
Yes.

Will you reach? Reznikov entered politics from advocacy, and he looks very comfortable there, in my opinion [Oleksiy Reznikov — the Minister of Defence of Ukraine, formerly a partner of Asters law firm].
No, not at all. It seems to me that he is uncomfortable there. I am sure that he is very uncomfortable, I am sure that he is not in harmony with himself. It seems to me, I will say honestly that I depend quite strongly, perhaps excessively, on public evaluation. I understand that politics is about a different level of responsibility if you approach it honestly. I would honestly like to work on rehabilitation reform and it would be very painful for me that some political problems prevent the implementation of something important. I'm afraid I would burn out quickly. I'm not that thick-skinned yet.

You take on political cases as a lawyer, but you are afraid to take on political responsibility. Is this how you try to engage in politics, which you seem to like, but without taking responsibility?
Come on, do I like politics? I'm not sure about that. Did I want to be good for society? Yes, of course. In terms of jurisprudence, I know that there is a large space in which I would like to find my place because I know that I have not reached my ideal level of advocacy.

If I really believe that my participation in politics will improve something in society, then I will go willingly, not go – run. But I don't believe it yet. And one more thing. In politics, you will find yourself in the company of those people for whom you will be responsible and share their reputation, including a bad one. When I created the Miller company, I wanted to influence what it does and where it goes. And in politics, you are not like that, you depend on the company of people who come with different motivations. And not all of them came with the motivation to improve society.

Legal business

Miller is now an even more public law firm than you were before the invasion. You post day and night about almost all the affairs you conduct. Why?
We limited the number of materials that come out. We have a queue to write something.

When I came to you last time with booze and jokes about the eye, you were just on a call with the team. Now that you are out of the hospital, has your involvement in the company's work increased? And how is the company in general? How did they react to your return?
One story surprised me. I went into the office where the white-collar practice sits, there is a lawyer, Sasha, she joined us recently. She didn't expect me to come and started crying. I went out to ask my colleagues what happened, maybe I scared her? They said that she was very worried, worried about the war, about me. Something similar happened when my father died: colleagues duplicated all corporate chats so as not to disturb me.

Now we have preparations for the 10th anniversary of the company. On September 28, we will celebrate 10 years, and this is the only thing in which I am involved. But in general, the company completely manages itself, I don't even influence any decisions, which infuriates me like a child: I can't fire someone, say – that's it, you're fired, I was forbidden.

Should someone be fired?
It turns out that people I'm uncomfortable working with can be comfortable for my colleagues. That's why I don't get into these issues anymore, I understand that it is their responsibility. I may not like this or that, I can make comments, but I understand that this is a matter for the head of the practice.

What do you plan to do when the company works without you?
I am still struggling with this question. To be honest, I would like to go back to war, but two things are holding me back. Two things: I don't want to hurt my family, and the second thing is that I don't know if I'll forgive myself if I come back wounded again and be even less independent than I am now. Now I have lost my eye and my sense of smell, but I am independent, I can manage my own life. The only thing is that I cannot drive myself.

If I go to war again and come back without an arm or a leg, I'm unlikely to be very effective. That's why I'm still hesitating. I have a lot to do at the company if I come back. I will continue to practice law; I just rushed to the hearing on Sternenko, but I understand that I have no right to do so.

You don't have the right to be a public defender because you're in the military?
Yes, since I am a military man, I cannot practice law. We have an idiotic system: as a soldier, I have to be either in a military operation or in a military unit, or in a rehabilitation center. Do you know what rehabilitation is? I breathe fresh air in Koncha Zaspa [in Kyiv region], why do I f*cking need it? My dog rehabilitates me and as well as my work damn faster than in this Koncha-Zaspa.

Recorded by Dima Gadomsky, photo Maria Matiashova